In the ongoing, and ever-widening conversation with my friend...

So, the question then becomes this: Can you trust/worship a being that sends my grandmother to hell, simply because she didn’t necessarily believe the right way, say the right prayer, go to the right church…and not just MY grandmother, but other grandmothers/mothers/fathers/children who didn’t believe exactly right but were good, moral, decent, loving, kind, compassionate people? Would a loving Father/Mother GOD do this to people? Would we, who only parent in a lesser way than GOD, do this to our own children? No, we would not. So how could GOD, who is the best, most loving parent in the world? Some say because he is just. Is sending grandmothers to hell just or fair? No. It isn’t. That is why GOD made a way FOR ALL PEOPLE. As I said to my friend, if there is a hell at all, it’s redemptive. It takes the worst of us and burns the bad out of us. I think of Hell as the very heart of GOD. Where the love shines so intensely, the compassion and healing are so clear, that any “sin”, any “bad”, any “wrongness” left in a person is literally burned out by the glory/light of the love of GOD. And we come out the other side, all shiny and new, healed and clean, loving and compassionate. Some of us get there in this life. Some of us are so hurt, so broken by things in the world that we don’t. For those, there is the cleansing/healing/loving heart of GOD.

Conversation I had with my friend via emal:

First, I need you to know that I no longer see the Bible as inerrant or GOD channeled. I see the Bible as man's attempts to explain the world and the way they thought GOD interacted with them and they with GOD. If I actually had to believe in the GOD of the Old Testament, I'd be an atheist. I could never worship a GOD who was that schizophrenic, kind one moment, murderous the next. A GOD who promoted and committed genocide. A GOD worse than any terrorist we've ever known. I now see the Bible as a primer. A starter book for coming to know about GOD, but it's not where we should "stay" in our faith/in our relationship with GOD. We need to step out of/past the Bible and into direct relationship with GOD through the Holy Spirit. Less law, more relationship/grace. This is a piece I wrote on my blog on grace:

I spend time in Yahoo's Christian chat rooms. I have since about 2001. My theology has meta-morphed a great deal since then and because of this I find myself sometimes having to define "grace" as I have come to see it, to more legalistic believers. I have to tell you, it's like trying to explain rain to someone who has never experienced it. Their standard quip is that Grace only would leave us lawless and in chaos. This is a total misunderstanding of Grace. Once you have the concept of a loving, compassionate, forgiving GOD internalized, you find that you don't want/need to step outside of grace out of natural response to the loving GOD, not because some Damocles ruler is about to smack you on the head/hand/heart. When you FINALLY "get" the concept of love GOD/love others, it becomes a natural extension of who you are (in your heart/mind) and is no longer a response to an external set of rules. But they don't get the "you don't WANT to hurt/lie/steal/rob/abuse" part! So I wanted to share this piece that was shared on an E-list I'm on:

As one of the [UU] denomination’s many itinerant clergy, he [Hosea Ballou] was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist preacher one afternoon. They argued theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, “Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and I’d still go to heaven.” Hosea Ballou looked over at him and said, “If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you.” ~ told by the Rev. Elizabeth Strong

http://www.uuworld.org/ideas/articles/2745.shtm

THIS is Grace in action, Grace lived out in our life. That our heart is so profoundly changed that the concept of doing wrong no longer even naturally occurs to us...May we all be found walking the road of Grace

Now on to hell... Our concept of Hell is much different than that held by the people of Christ's time. Hell didn't become this place of endless torture until much later in the Christianity game. I'm not sure I EVER believed in Hell as a place of ETERNAL TORMENT. Think about that...GOD, our eternal parent, who taught us to love our enemies as ourselves, is going to send BILLIONS of people to Hell to be tormented FOR ALL ETERNITY? And we get to watch and rejoice? No thank you.

IF there is a Hell, it is redemptive, because GOD is all about redemption. Like the potter and pot in the kiln or the jeweler and the ore in the smelter, all about burning away the imperfections and coming out on the other side whole, perfected, healed and one with GOD. In Adam all man died. In Christ all man lives. Losing BILLIONS of people isn't ALL and it isn't living. IT'S UTTER FAILURE. GOD doesn't fail. He set us up, he set up the world, and he set it up so GOD WINS. GOD wins because EVERY SINGLE SOUL WILL FIND REDEMPTION IN HIM. Yes, Hitler. Yes, Jeffrey Dahlmer. They will come to see how broken they were and find complete healing and forgiveness in the Father who created them and who loves them enough to send his Son to die for them. Who is all about the prodigals. And the world is full of prodigals. I know that for some, this loving GOD doesn't work. Life conditions us to believe that GOD will be "fair" by HUMAN standards. But his standards are not our standards. And he wins. Hands down, 100% totally wins. Anything else would be a victory for evil. And that just wouldn't work with the GOD of the universe. People who have been severely used and abused by life have trouble with a Grace-enough-to-save-us-all GOD also. We want retribution (we call it justice) and we WANT people to suffer like we did. But every person who has harmed another person in this life, was once harmed by another. Abusers are not born. They are created by another person. GOD could never hold that against someone for all eternity. He would KNOW their story and love them in spite of their pain no matter how they acted out on it. And he would KNOW how to heal them to be exactly right, perfect, whole and healthy. Anyway, I know that you will probably never see GOD like I do. This saddens me, but I've come to recognize that some people cannot or will not. And that's OK. I have the right to see GOD the way GOD reveals himself to me. And you have the right to see GOD how he reveals himself to you.

AND I know that this doesn't have to affect our friendship either, cuz we have never agreed on all things anyway.

Reposted from the Beyond Blue Blog...

which is a blog on depression that I follow. This story touched me today because of an ongoing struggle in my life, and how this struggle has come to cause me to, again, struggle with a depression that threatens to capsize me...and this story helped me today to see that what I see as an ongoing struggle just might be something that could grow into 100 ft. tall bamboo...

The Fern and the Bamboo
Posted: 18 Mar 2010 08:00 AM PDT

Because I'm needing some extra encouragement and inspiration these days, I thought I'd publish this lovely parable that my guardian angel Ann sent me awhile back.
One day I decided to quit...I quit my job, my relationship, my spirituality.... I wanted to quit my life.
I went to the woods to have one last talk with God.
"God", I said. "Can you give me one good reason not to quit?"
His answer surprised me. "Look around", He said. "Do you see the fern and the bamboo?"
"Yes", I replied.
"When I planted the fern and the bamboo seeds, I took very good care of them. I gave them light. I gave them water. The fern quickly grew from the earth. Its brilliant green covered the floor. Yet nothing came from the bamboo seed. But I did not quit on the bamboo. "In the second year the fern grew more vibrant and plentiful. And again, nothing came from the bamboo seed. But I did not quit on the bamboo.
"In year three there was still nothing from the bamboo seed. But I would not quit. The same in year four.
"Then in the fifth year, a tiny sprout emerged from the earth. Compared to the fern, it was seemingly small and insignificant. But just six months later, the bamboo rose to over 100 feet tall. It had spent the five years growing roots. Those roots made it strong and gave it what it needed to survive. I would not give any of my creations a challenge it could not handle.
"Did you know, my child, that all this time you have been struggling, you have actually been growing roots? I would not quit on the bamboo. I will never quit on you.
"Don't compare yourself to others." He said. "The bamboo had a different purpose than the fern. Yet they both make the forest beautiful.
"Your time will come", God said to me. "You will rise high."
"How high should I rise?" I asked.
"How high will the bamboo rise?" He asked in return.
"As high as it can?" I questioned.
"Yes." He said, "Give me glory by rising as high as you can."
I left the forest, realizing that God will never give up on me. And He will never give up on you. Never regret a day in your life. Good days give you happiness; bad days give you experiences; both are essential to life.

~Author Unknown

Grace...

I spend time in Yahoo's Christian chat rooms. I have since about 2001. My theology has meta-morphed a great deal since then and because of this I find myself sometimes having to define "grace" as I have come to see it, to more legalistic believers. I have to tell you, it's like trying to explain rain to someone who has never experienced it. Their standard quip is that Grace only would leave us lawless and in chaos. This is a total misunderstanding of Grace. Once you have the concept of a loving, compassionate, forgiving GOD internalized, you find that you don't want/need to step outside of grace out of natural response to the loving GOD, not because some Damocles ruler is about to smack you on the head/hand/heart. When you FINALLY "get" the concept of love GOD/love others, it becomes a natural extension of who you are (in your heart/mind) and is no longer a response to an external set of rules. But they don't get the "you don't WANT to hurt/lie/steal/rob/abuse" part! So I wanted to share this piece that was shared on an E-list I'm on:

As one of the [UU] denomination’s many itinerant clergy, he [Hosea Ballou] was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist preacher one afternoon. They argued theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, “Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and I’d still go to heaven.” Hosea Ballou looked over at him and said, “If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you.” ~ told by the Rev. Elizabeth Strong

http://www.uuworld.org/ideas/articles/2745.shtm

THIS is Grace in action, Grace lived out in our life. That our heart is so profoundly changed that the concept of doing wrong no longer even naturally occurs to us...May we all be found walking the road of Grace

Emotion...

Born in the heart it EXPLODES upwards to the brain... drips downward through the eyes crying so many tears... running down through the throat taking your voice dead away circling back again to the heart radiating out to the fingertips making them numb...down from the heart into the legs... making them feel like dead weights causing every joint and muscle to ache in a downward spiral of exhaustion. Finally running through you and into the ground...Once again you can move and breathe. Still hearing/feeling the echo...

!!!Make a Difference!!!

You Make A Difference

A teacher in New York decided to honor each of her seniors in High School by telling them the difference each of them had made. She called each student to the front of the class, one at a time. First, she told each of them how they had made a difference to her, and the class. Then she presented each of them with a blue ribbon, imprinted with gold letters, which read, "Who I Am Makes a Difference."

Afterwards, the teacher decided to do a class project, to see what kind of impact recognition would have on a Community. She gave each of the students three more blue ribbons, and instructed them to go out and spread this acknowledgment ceremony. Then they were to follow up on the results, see who honored whom, and report back to the class in a week.

One of the boys in the class went to a junior executive in a nearby Company, and honored him for helping him with his career planning. He gave him a blue ribbon, and put it on his shirt. Then he gave him two extra ribbons and said, "We're doing a class project on recognition, and we'd like for you to go out, find somebody to honor, give them a blue ribbon, then give them the extra blue ribbon so they can acknowledge a third person, to keep this acknowledgment ceremony going. Then please report back to me and tell me what happened."

Later that day, the junior executive went in to see his boss, who had been noted, by the way, as being kind of a grouchy fellow. He sat his boss down, and he told him that he deeply admired him for being a creative genius. The boss seemed very surprised. The junior executive asked him if he would accept the gift of the blue ribbon, and would he give him permission to put it on him. His surprised boss said, "Well, sure." The junior executive took the blue ribbon and placed it right on his boss's jacket, above his heart.

As he gave him the last extra ribbon, he said, "Would you take this extra ribbon, and pass it on by honoring somebody else. The young boy who first gave me the ribbons is doing a project in school, and we want to keep this recognition ceremony going and find out how it affects people."

That night, the boss came home to his 14-year-old son, and sat him down. He said, "The most incredible thing happened to me today. I was in my office, and one of the junior executives came in and told me he admired me, and gave me a blue ribbon for being a creative genius. Imagine! He thinks I'm a creative genius! Then he put this blue ribbon that says, "Who I Am Makes a Difference", on my jacket above my heart. He gave me an extra ribbon and asked me to find somebody else to honor.

As I was driving home tonight, I started thinking about whom I would honor with this ribbon, and I thought about you. I want to honor you. My days are really hectic and when I come home, I don't pay a lot of attention to you. Sometimes I scream at you for not getting good enough grades in school, and for your bedroom being a mess. But somehow tonight, I just wanted to sit here and, well, just let you know that you do make a difference to me. Besides your mother, you are the most important person in my life. You're a great kid, and I love you!"

The startled boy started to sob and sob, and he couldn't stop crying. His whole body shook. He looked up at his father and said through his tears, "Dad, earlier tonight I sat in my room and wrote a letter to you and Mom, explaining why I had killed myself, and I asked you to forgive me. I was going to commit suicide tonight after you were asleep. I just didn't think that you cared at all. The letter is upstairs. I don't think I need it after all." His father walked upstairs and found a heartfelt letter full of anguish and pain.

The boss went back to work a changed man. He was no longer a grouch, but made sure to let all of his employees know that they made a difference. The junior executive helped several other young people with career planning, and never forgot to let them know that they made a difference in his life..... one being the boss' son.

And the young boy and his classmates learned a valuable lesson, "Who you are DOES make a difference".

You are under no obligation to pass this on to anyone....... not to two people, or to two hundred. As far as I am concerned, you can forget it and move on. On the other hand, if you want, you could send it to all of the people who mean something to you, or send it to the one, two, or three people who mean the most. Or, just smile and know that someone thinks that you are important, or you wouldn't have received this in the first place.

Who you are does make a difference, and I wanted you to know that.

Isn't this a wonderful story? I'm passing the blue ribbon to you, for who YOU are does make a difference, too!